Solving Gun Violence: Antong Lucky

Bobby Doyle 0:00

Welcome to solving gun violence, a weekly student led podcast from the University of Virginia's gun violence solutions project that tackles one of America's most urgent issues, preventing gun violence. Each episode will feature experts sharing actionable solutions to improve community safety while upholding individual rights. My name is Bobby Doyle, the director of the gun violence solutions project, and your host today, this episode features a conversation with Antong Lucky, a nationally recognized leader in Violence Prevention and Community Transformation. Antong is the president and CEO of urban specialists, a non profit dedicated to equipping and empowering local change makers to disrupt cycles of violence and rebuild communities. A former gang member turned activist, he spent over two decades mentoring young people, training violence and intervention leaders and bridging the gap between law enforcement in the communities they serve. We discuss his journey from an incarceration to advocacy, the power of lived experience in violence prevention, how to shift cultural narratives around gun violence and what it takes to build lasting peace in urban communities. If you're interested in practical, evidence based solutions and the future of gun violence prevention, you're in the right place. Let's dive in.

Antong, thank you so much for being here with us today,

Antong Lucky 1:32

Man, thank you so thank you for having me. I'm blessed to be here at the University of Virginia. It's my first time, so I'm enjoying it.

Bobby Doyle 1:39

Wow. Well, hopefully it's not your last time. Okay, let's start with you kind of your story. So people often talk about gun violence prevention on a policy perspective or a research perspective, but it's also for many people who do this deeply personal. Can we start by hearing about your story. How did you end up doing this work? Because a lot of people just don't, don't, kind of go down this path.

Antong Lucky 2:00

Well, I think this work chose me, and I thank you for that question. I get that question all the time, but me, growing up in Dallas to a single mother, my father was sentenced to prison when I was nine months. I focused on school. I was a talent gifted student, a honor roll student, but I grew up in a neighborhood that was very challenging and very tough. And the rule of law in my neighborhood was survival growing up. And so I understood that you had to be tough, that my knack for education in school was no match for that, that environment that said that smart kids got bullied. And so one thing led to another Bobby and I ended up starting a gang, one of the first gangs in Dallas. I went from a talent, gifted student to starting a gang and one of the first gangs in Dallas, and that led me down this path of a lot of harm that I was doing, not only to in my community, but to other community and other individuals that ultimately put me in front of a judge who said to me that I was a minister society and I needed to be in prison. And so that right, that situation, when I was sentenced to prison, gave me an opportunity, or maybe I took the opportunity to look deeply at my life and how did I go? How did that happen? How did I go from an eight honor roll student to a judge telling me what that I was a minister society. I wanted to know the answers to that, and in prison, I was able to explore those answers. I became accountable to everything that I did. I accepted it, but I also understood that there was some dynamics and those there were some variables in place that I didn't understand. And as I started to educate myself and dig and learn and study and all that good stuff, it burst in me this passion to go back into my neighborhood because I denounced my gang. Let me say that first, so you so they know that denounced my gang in prison because I understood that it meant no good, etc, etc, but it led me on this trajectory to self actualize by understanding a lot of different stuff that I didn't understand, and just birthed me this passion to help other young people who are growing up in neighborhoods and environments like I did, those who were smart but had to make a choice of survival. I wanted to help them. And so that led me in this path. You know? It's led me down this path, and I'm here now.

Bobby Doyle 4:30

It's amazing that you were able to go down this journey, build the self actualization for yourself. And I know a lot of the work you do through urban specialists and trying to help bring other people on that journey too. And it's one thing for you to do it yourself, and another thing to help bring other people along, or help see where they're on their journey, and kind of invite them onto the path that you've been on. Can you talk a little bit about that model that you use an urban specialist, kind of the the way you're trying to work with people in these communities, and how, how maybe relates to what you're doing or you did, or maybe. How you have to switch up your approach for different people with different circumstances?

Antong Lucky 5:03

Yeah, I would say this my mentor, one of my mentors, the great Bob Woodson. He's here in he's in DC, great guy who once said that when they're trying to find a cure to something, you must extract some of the disease to create the care. So with that understanding, I've learned that in order to solve something such as gun violence, you have to involve people who have proximity to this situation to become the solution barriers and the change. And so one of our methodologies at Urban specialists is training and catalyzing individuals out of communities where that's affected by violence. You know, some of those individuals who are what we call a thermostat, they can be the ones who turn it up, they turn it down. We recruit them to our side and say, Hey, let's use your influence for good, that you have some influence that you can help. And oftentimes people don't know that until you begin to show them that they can, they can be a part in this process. And so that's how we do. We We encourage, we we train, we bring in individuals, and we say, Let's allow you to use your influence to help your community cut up. At the core of it, most people want to help. They just looking for a way to help, a way to get involved, and we have to be the ones who initiate and bring these people in to the solution. Yeah, we talked to a lot of people who do similar work, and there's such a theme around like inviting people to do something, inviting people to step up and it really will meet you where you are. I'm curious if you have, like, a specific story you can share about someone you work with, like that. I think you know it's helpful to hear like this is a great general model, but maybe be helpful for people to hear a specific person that you work with, oh yeah, that like has gone on this journey too. Oh yeah. We have two brothers. I won't say their names, yeah, but we worked with them in two different neighborhoods, right? Two different neighborhoods who were at odds with each other, right? One of unbeknownst to us, one other guy had actually shot the other guy point blank range in the face a couple of years prior, and they were searching for each other. And it was interesting, because they was just to to uh blocks over from each other this whole time, and then didn't know it. But as we were doing the work, we had brought them in, you know, we brought them in separate because we didn't know the situation. But after doing the work, after taking them to our OG you training, original guys United training, where we train individuals with lived experience on how to go back into communities and disrupt training the violence these two individuals met at one of our trainings, and you can imagine, right? It got real tense, and we didn't know what was going on, because these were two brothers that we were working with in two different settings. And so when we, when we investigated, one of them had shot the other one, and the one that got shot was looking for, looking for him to retaliate. But they had been, they had been drowned in this philosophy that we had, that it was hard for them to retaliate, right? And then they agreed right after we did some some intervention with them, and some mediation and some conflict resolution, and it was tense, I will say that, but they both agreed to allow us to film them coming back together, right? We actually got that on tape today, but we filmed them at the table apologizing. The one who was the shooter was apologizing, and, I mean, it was a magical moment, because they both cried, they both understood some stuff. They both paid homage to the information that they got from us and the need to do right by the community, and they apologize. And these two individuals right today, just someone this past weekend, is working in neighborhoods, reaching and pulling others using a story. So a lot of stuff they do together, but that's just one instance. Man, we have many instances where we have individuals who have the pedigree, you know, who are saying, I want to be on this side. I want to help, etc, etc. And we just kind of like to initiate. We just initiate this stuff and expose people and get them going. So it's a lot of different, different, uh, examples that we have for that.

Bobby Doyle 9:38

I appreciate you bringing up a story about retaliation too, is that such a huge driver of violence, right? Like the one shooting is right, terrible, but then it often leads to another and another. And locally, we've seen this as an issue in Charlottesville, even especially around re entry, right? People come back from being in prison, they're not given. Lot of support, it kind of creates a sparking point, and then violence can kind of flare up because of that. And it's been a challenge for folks as they reenter society to kind of not have that cycle continue again and again. You've had experience re entering you've worked a lot of folks like that. Do you do you have, like, ideas or thoughts for ways we can break that cycle or make it so that we're not setting people up for failure when they come back out of prison?

Antong Lucky 10:25

Yeah, I think one of the key to the key to that is you have to find individuals who are who have that experience. It's nothing like someone getting information from an individual who been there, been in their shoes, who can lend the credibility? Because it's like credit we all use in our influence and our credibility to influence an outcome, right? So you take an individual who has lived experience, oftentimes in this society, is viewed from a different lenses, right? They worked very through different lenses. But in this situation, when you're trying to convince other individuals who are coming, let's say coming out of prison and trying to get them to do right is nothing more convincing. It's nothing more telling than an individual who actually came out of prison and doing right. I think that's why my story is so powerful to a lot of individuals, but it's because I was once in those shoes, and I was one who can say, hey, let me, let me tell you. Let me introduce you to my friend, Bobby. You know, he's a great guy. He got the passion he got to her, because it's that credibility. And then Bobby can say, Anton, let me introduce you to my friend. And because of your credibility, it gives me credibility. It's like credit. And so having somebody who who been in those shoes and walking is the key part that you got to have, because I'm only going to believe what I'm familiar with. You know what's familiar to me? Someone who can understand where I come from. And so we have to support those individuals in the process of making sure the individuals come back to society and ready to be productive citizens.

Bobby Doyle 12:10

That's such a powerful concept process. I've heard people refer to it as like a convert communicator, right? Like having someone who has gone through that process, the journey you want someone to see, to see that it's possible, yes, see that it's doable. That can be such an important way to give people permission to make that change.

Antong Lucky 12:26

But I will say that individual has to be that has that individual has to have to carry the principles, because any, and I don't want to mistakenly say, just because a person been through some stuff that they automatically qualified to be that individual that I'm talking about, it has to be an individual who have conformed to some new principles and some new, you know, new norms, etc, etc, you know. So, you know, that's key too, because I want to make that distinction.

Bobby Doyle 12:59

Let's shift gears a little bit so gun violence is violence in general, constantly changing. New folks, new technology, new trends happening. You've talked in past about invading the most influential segments of urban culture to disrupt toxic trends. What do you see as the most harmful trends today when it comes to violence, and how do we shift cultural narratives in a way that actually sticks?

Antong Lucky 13:26

Yeah, I think showing this violence on social media is definitely harmful to young, impressionable minds. The need for attention and attention being one of the, in my opinion, strongest drugs out right now, I think it plays a part into the violence that we see around this country. There is not a lot of voices who are advocating consequences are advocating for something other than handling conflict with violence, and we need, we need more that so we have as for us as peacemakers, we have to be, we have to be into, woven into those areas and those parts of our society that promote this toxic idea of violence, it has to be a voice that challenges anytime violence is being perpetrated, you have to be able to challenge that. You know, at no point can we go quiet or we go silent on issues of violence, we all have a part to play. We all can contribute to reducing and eradicating violence, but we have to play that part. It's a lot of parts of our society, whether it's music, whether it's movies that promote violence, in a way to these employees. Impressionable minds. You got to think about it like this. It's a lot of kids who are growing especially in the inner cities, who are growing up without without a two parent household, growing up without resources. And all of these factors play into creating individuals who has no empathy for other individuals, just like myself, growing up without a father in my life, and the impact that that had on it. So that right there begs the question that we need we need more resources. We need more organizations. We need more individuals who can be surrogates, who can be true tellers, who could be moral coaches to these individuals who are committing violence in our in our inner cities. We just need more. We need more. We need people putting their eyes on on these issues and saying, How can I play a part? Because I believe that the issue of gun violence is not just an issue of urban communities. It's an issue for everybody, for all Americans, because we all have a part to play. We cannot. We cannot close our eyes and say this don't affect me, because we've often seen on the news where that violence has trickled into other parts of town and some of our most influent areas, we've seen near stories of individuals innocently being affected by violence, etc, etc. So we all got a part to play when we, when we, when it comes to addressing this. We cannot sit back and say, That's not my problem. We got to get involved.

Bobby Doyle 16:34

Everybody has a part to play. Everybody. I could not agree more. I mean, even in rural communities, smaller cities, I mean, we talked about community violence. Yes, it can happen anywhere. Yes, suicide, huge. Yes, driver, gun violence happens everywhere. Yes, you could talk to anyone in this country, and unfortunately, probably know someone who just tangentially, at least related to them, that has died by suicide from a firearm. And the guns are really, really lethal when it comes to suicide, and that's just a fact that we have to deal with and we have to confront. And then we can go even deeper into all this community violence. Yes, intervention stuff. When you talk about community disruption, you talk about, we need more support. We need more organizations. Do you see, like, a real gap or like, what would you like to see specifically here. Like to help help work on this. I'm curious.

Antong Lucky 17:23

I like to see a around this country. I would love to see a formidable, true and real relationship between law enforcement and communities that they serve, because I believe public safety to get public safety, that relationship between community and law enforcement is integral. You got to have that you cannot have public safety. And I think public safety is a concern for every American. You know, any city that I travel to when I'm in a hotel, I'm going to see the same thing on the nightly news, and that's violence that's happening in these cities. So public safety is all of our all our issue, and the only way that we can address that is we have to bridge this gap between law enforcement and communities that it serve. And I believe, I'm very optimistic. I believe that it can happen. We've done that in Dallas, I would like to give a shout out to Chief Eddie Garcia, who was just a former chief me and him did some work post George Floyd, and Dallas was one of the first cities couple more cities, but Dallas was one of the first city that saw a major decline in gun violence during that time, but and I like to attribute that to the relationship that Chief and I had, because we had this North Star that said, no matter if you a police officer with a gun and a badge, are you a gang member with a gun and a rag that lawlessness, lawlessness cannot be tolerated. And that was our North Star. And we bonded on that and we drove that principle that whether it was the department, individuals, officers who are not doing the right thing, we have to hold them accountable, or if it was the community who was showing out, we had to make sure that they were held accountable so that lawlessness couldn't prevail. And when we when you do that and you understand that, then and only then can communities become safe, they become safe havens for everybody that's involved.

Bobby Doyle 19:34

So I hear accountability Yes is the name of the game here. For jurisdictions that don't have Antong Lucky to work with the police chief and help build this relationship. What do you what do you want to see more communities that are trying to work with their local law enforcement to like both lean into things they're doing that are really positive, they're helping with the safety?

Antong Lucky 19:58

Yeah, I think, I think for communities across this country, we have to understand, like I said earlier and I said again, that you cannot get public safety if you don't have a a true relationship, not in platitudes, but a true relationship between law enforcement and community, that at some point we have to challenge our perceptions, challenge our assumptions, and understand proximity, meaning that we have to get closer to individuals and have real conversation. Because it's easier to judge and assume from across the street than to go have a conversation. We got to change that. We have to have change. Because I think at the end of the day, what we're going to find out is that, whether you're a law enforcement or you community, that everybody want to be filled everybody want to feel safe. Everybody wants safe, and public safety is is something that we all should have, and it takes us and let me push past the algorithms. Let me push past the perceptions. Let me go across the street and let me find out what moves us, what we connected to, and how we advance that. And I think that's the key to having safe communities across this country. It takes proximity. It takes us saying, what do we care about and how we push that?

Bobby Doyle 21:09

Okay, that's gonna be a little more challenging question. You don't have to answer this one. We can always cut it out. When people say they feel safe, safety means different things, different people. For some people, safety means I get to carry my gun around, and that means I can be safe. And for some people, safety means I don't see anyone carrying firearms around. How do you help balance these different versions of people feeling safe in the same community can look very different for different people while making sure we're actually are like, functionally safer?

Antong Lucky 21:37

I will say that's a great question. I will say that's a very nuanced question. Because again, you do have people who say we shouldn't have guns, and then you have people who say that we can't feel safe without guns. I think it's just about bringing those two conversations together and understanding. Because I think once you begin to have the conversation, a granular conversation around what safety looks like. I think everyone can arrive a land at something where we out, where we fiercely say, this is the way forward. But that don't happen. You don't get the answer to that question unless you bring people together. I can't champion my idea in a silo. I have to come closer. I have to come in conversation with people, and we can find ways. I'll never forget, I was on the cover Time Magazine when they was talking about the gun debate, and I was one who was saying, hey, ban guns, etc, etc. And I remember, just by happenstance, I was in New York, they brought us back for for another, uh, addition to the shoot and me and this lady who was a pro gun owner, etc, etc, just happened to go to lunch, right? And we went to lunch, she was on one side of the debate, and I was going to other. And we sat down, and we started talking, and we started having the conversation. And by the end of that conversation, she made me change my perspective. But that wouldn't have happened unless we came closely. We were screaming from both sides of the aisle, but once we sat down for lunch and she told me why she passionately agreed in the Second Amendment and began to explain her point of view. I said I never thought about that. I said I never looked at it from that perspective, and it made me change my perspective. I think in the question that you proposed, what safety looks like when you bring those individuals together to have a nuanced conversation, a real complex conversation, I think we would land at the answer. We will land at the answer in the way forward, just off the conversation, because it just takes us listening to each other to figure out what why? Why do we have these concerns? Why do we veer it the way that we veer, if nobody ever stops to have the conversations, we can never get to the solution. And I believe getting to the solution involves all of us and getting involved having conversation.

Bobby Doyle 23:56

Yeah. And as you've touched on, we are all starting at the same spot. Yes, we're all starting at we want to be safe. Everyone wants to be safe. They could look a little different. We can talk about that, but you can get everyone around the table saying, we all want to be safer. That's what we're focused here at UVA. I know across the country folks are focused on that, and starting there and then building from it, is such a great place to actually have a good conversation, rather than, as you were saying, shouting past each other, yes. Okay. Is there anything else you want to talk about before we start to wrap up?

Antong Lucky 24:24

Nah I think I'm good. I appreciate this conversation. We can keep going. Y'all kick me out here. We'll talk about this.

Bobby Doyle 24:33

Okay, I'm gonna ask you the last question we ask everybody who joins here, tougher question, okay, what does the solution to the gun violence epidemic in the United States look like to you?

Antong Lucky 24:44

The solution that I see for the gun violence epidemic is more resources towards unconventional and non traditional organizations who are doing the work I believe, if we resource those organizations who doing the work that we can end this epidemic of gun violence. And I will leave you with a scenario a tale right and I want you to envision this for me real quick. If someone is 30,000 feet underground, underwater, someone 30,000 feet underwater, and someone, a diver, is working with that individual, and they move that person up 20,000 feet, pushing them up to somebody that's standing on the shore. That person is still underwater, but to the individual that's working with that person, they saying, I just got 10,000 feet to go before we be at sea level. And that's how I describe what I just said, in terms of solutions we have to sometimes those individuals who are out there on the streets and communities working with young people may not yield the kind of data that we need, etc, universities like to see, but that don't disqualify the work that they're doing, because we do understand that if we have resource organization, resource individuals, resource programs, who are working with young people, like how I was, and communities who are Working having them in programs, mentorship, those individuals are less likely to be robbing, breaking in houses, etc, etc, if they under the influence of these organizations. So I say more resources to these organizations, more resources to the colleges, because we believe the data that they produce, the evidence they produce, we have to get that information to the practitioners who are doing the work and let them arm and take that back to their community. I think it's just a partnership. It's a partnership between our part. It's not it's not your way work better than my way is, how can we all contribute? How can we all add value to this conversation? And when we start looking at it like that, we are then begin to attack and maybe, you know, eliminate this whole thing of gun violence. I just think it's resources to these organizations, resources to these colleges, to partner with practitioners in addressing this violence.

Bobby Doyle 27:15

Beautiful. Everyone's got a piece of that answer. Thank you. Thank you so much. Antong for joining us today. Where can everyone find you?

Antong Lucky 27:22

If y'all go to all social medias and tongue speaks A, N, T O, N, G, S, P, E, A, k, s, and tongue speaks on all social media, make sure you go anywhere they sell books and pick up my book. Path forward. Go get it from incarceration to a life of activism, and then urban special, the urban specialists on our social media networks to see the work that we do our organization. Do we love to hear you.

Bobby Doyle 27:52

Thank you for joining us today. Thank you for other information about what we're doing here at the University of Virginia. You can go to the gun violence solutions Project website, which will be in the show notes. We will see you next week.